Two Wrongs...

Posted by: Lady Logician

Tagged in: Untagged 

On Sunday some so-called "pro-life" advocate decided that vengeance was his and he killed late term abortion provider George Tiller as he greeted guests at the door of the church that he attended. I would think it goes without saying that as a right to life advocate myself, I can not condone the shooters actions. I find the taking of this man's life to be as reprehensible as I found his "business". Taking an abortionists life is no more acceptable (to a pro-life advocate) than the taking of an child's life! I have written in these pages before that the taking of a life is contrary to Christian theology (which brings one to wonder about the church that Mr. Tiller attended) but just as his actions were against Christian theology, so to is the killing of this abortionist. Both men have many sins to atone and one can only hope that at some time before his life was ended, Mr. Tiller did repent of his sins - but that is not something that any of us here on earth will know any time soon.
All that said, to use the leftist logic that Bill O'Reilly is somehow responsible for the murder of Mr. Tiller is about as "logical" as blaming Code Pink or Cindy Sheehan for the murder of a military recruiter in Little Rock! Come on guys - can we please get real here.....

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I find it odd
written by MoonliteSonata , June 02, 2009

that a doctor who's been practicing women's medicine for so many years gets the title of "abortionist", as if that is all he's done in his career. This isn't the only article I've noticed it in, so I'm not picking on anyone specific. It's just something I've seen in pro-life vocabulary that disturbs me.
I'd like someone to actually tell me how many late term abortions this man performed that were strictly for "convenience" and not for the health of the mother? Does anyone know? Probably not, since late term abortion is not a common thing, but a somtimes necessary one, for the health and safety of the mother. I don't know of anyone who's ever advocated for late term abortion strictly for convenience, since it is DANGEROUS to the mother, nor do I know of any woman who would consider it as an option unless the alternative was her own possible death. Do any of you? And how many GP's or GYN's would perform a late term abortion even in the case of saving the mother? None that I know of. They refer them to doctors like Tiller. This doctor did perform a sometimes necessary proceedure, and gets the title of "abortionist". How sad. How many lives did he save? Do any so-called pro lifer's care? If you don't know the numbers, then judgement shouldn't be yours any more than his murderer's.

Not so odd
written by Kermit , June 02, 2009

How many times do you have to steal before getting the title "thief"?

A Non Y Mouse
suicide bomber like
written by A Non Y Mouse , June 02, 2009

Perhaps the abortionist killer, is sorely mistaken that his
"righteous" act would score him entrance into heaven.

Lady Logician
A Non Y Mouse
written by Lady Logician , June 02, 2009

possibly...however I suspect that the killer didn't even think that far ahead. He just figured, like many zealots do, that the ends justified the means - not thinking that someone will take Tiller's place.

Feh - the people that do this are idiots pure and simple....


Worse than idiots
written by Kermit , June 02, 2009

Idiots with ideology.

Right to WHOSE life?
written by auntypsychotic , June 03, 2009

"How many times do you have to steal before getting the title "thief"?"

So, regardless of the reason for or necessity of a late term abortion, the guy is an "abortionist"? That's kind of sad, really.
I've known only one woman who has had to have a late term abortion; the baby was planned and welcomed but she developed gestational diabetes, high blood pressure and was on bedrest until her due date. Then she developed eclampsia and was unconscious so her husband had to make the hardest decision of his life. He chose her life. They were both devastated, later adopted and, still later, divorced. but she was alive to do all that. I wonder what would have happened if he had not had the RIGHT to make that choice? Hmmm ...

I have had one miscarriage that was ended with a DNC and one flat out abortion after I found myself knocked even though I used 2 forms of bc. The first caused the second, in that after the miscarriage I was told that I could never carry to term and to try to would likely kill me. I couldn't get spayed because I was "too young" so I have stuck with the pill for lo, these many years.

Now, I will have to go back to other, less successful methods if I find a playmate.
"Why?" you ask. Or even if you don't. Because in their infinite wisdom, my VA docs (and any others that I have contacted) have decided FOR ME that since I'm over 35 and smoke that I can't use the pill and won't prescribe it anymore. Regardless of my objections they won't do it no way, no how. I asked to be spayed but the VA won't do that either.
I have tried the depoprovera shot, not a good time. I have tried spermicides and sponges which is how I got knocked the second time. I refuse to have foreign bodies implanted in MY body because the dangers from them are huge and pretty common. Also, I am prone to infections as it is. So, thanks to people minding my business for me, I may one day have to avail myself of someone like Dr. Tiller or Moon will have to avail herself of an undertaker.
Yeah, right to life but not mine.

Don't call an abortionist a Pro-Lifer
written by K-Rod , June 03, 2009

So, regardless of the reason for or necessity to steal, the guy is a "thief"?
Do you really think that is sad, Aunty?

Aunty, please explain...
written by K-Rod , June 03, 2009

...what you meant when you said "...if he had not had the RIGHT to make that choice?"

Please don't tell us that that specific situation couldn't play out the same exact way without Roe v Wade. Please. Hmmmm.

BTW, ever heard of Plan B? Hmmmm

Please don't tell us you owe all your reproductive possibilities to Roe v Wade.

I sense a bit of anger and pain, it distorts your ability to clearly see and argue this issue.

Most people are fine with a whole bunch of exceptions... life of the woman... rape... incest... ugly baby... wrong gender... 666 on the ultrasound... (j/k on those last three ha ha ha ha ha)

Barthélemy Barbancourt
You know the old joke.
written by Il Duce’ , June 03, 2009

You can build 100 houses, cut down 1,000 trees or even save 4 people's lives but suck just one cock and everyone knows you as the "cock-sucker".

Somethings have a way of sticking.

written by Kermit , June 03, 2009

Ain't that the truth.

How sad does it have to be?
written by auntypsychotic , June 04, 2009

"Do you really think that is sad, Aunty?"

Yeah, K-Rod I do. Some anyway.
The two things in life I despise most are thieves and liars but if I had to have one in my life (for whatever reason) I would prefer the thief.
Also, in the past I have had to do whatever was necessary to survive, including stealing. I didn't like it and I didn't create ALL of the circumstances but I did what I had to.
This doctor did what he believed was right in the given context of each situation; that he should be pilloried, threatened, attacked and, ultimately, murdered is more than sad, it's down right tragic.

By definition-
written by MoonliteSonata , June 04, 2009

Any doctor who saves the life of a pregnant mother over the child she is carrying can be considered a murderer, or guilty of infanticide, even without the act of an abortion.
Saving the life of a mother when you KNOW the baby will die should also be considered criminal, in the way I'm interpreting some people's views here. If I'm wrong, then they are being incredibly hypocritical.
I wouldn't be here now if the life of the mother did not superceed the life of an unborn. My parents were hit head on by a drunk driver 2 weeks before my mother's due date of their first child. The doctors saved her life, KNOWING FULL WELL that if they saved the baby, Mom would die; and if they saved Mom, the baby would die. They allowed him to die in utero. What makes that more okay than a late term abortion to save the same person? my brother suffocated to death. What makes that more humane, or healthier, or whatever other arguements you'd like to make?

written by auntypsychotic , June 04, 2009

"Please don't tell us that that specific situation couldn't play out the same exact way without Roe v Wade. Please. Hmmmm."
Maybe, maybe not. How can we know? Until that right is taken away, how can any of us know how this situation or any other would "play out" until it's too late.

"BTW, ever heard of Plan B? Hmmmm"
That's two. You do good snide, K-Rod.

"Please don't tell us you owe all your reproductive possibilities to Roe v Wade."
K-Rod, I don't HAVE ANY reproductive possibilities. Unless you think death is a "reproductive possibility". I don't. But while Roe v. Wade is still in effect, I don't have to resort to the traditional
"back alley defrocked veterinarian" or whatever unreasonable facsimile would be available.

"I sense a bit of anger and pain, it distorts your ability to clearly see and argue this issue."
Sorry pal, but you don't "sense" anything. I came to terms with my limitations a long time ago and I don't regret any of my choices. I chose not breed before I was in double digits, long before I found out that that I could not (rather than would not) reproduce. Any anger you think you sense is your own, not mine. I am perfectly capable of discussing the subject objectively.

"Most people are fine with a whole bunch of exceptions... life of the woman... rape... incest... "
Really? "Most people"? I haven't seen that too much when the subject comes up in conversation or on the news. If exceptions come up at all they are usually met with "Yeah, but ..." and dozed on over. "Most people" are not the ones doing the bombing and the murdering. "Most people" are not reporting the words and actions of the killers until after they have committed their crimes. Ideological murderers almost always discuss the subject of their obsession vehemently and frequently with like-minded individuals and yet they never seem to get busted UNTIL AFTER they have killed the chosen enemy of both the killer and cronies.
Thirty years ago a woman's "reproductive possibilities" belonged to, first her father and then her husband, never to her. Women could not have obstetrical or gynecological treatment, birth control, hysterectomies and/or abortions without the express consent of their significant male. Even after Roe v. Wade that was still the situation until women realized that they did have options.
Such attitudes were the reason women's reproductive rights became a "movement". That was why Margaret Sanger had so many followers and why she is a "saint" to some people and a "sinner" to others. That was, and is, why so many people have such a distorted hatred of Planned Parenthood. THAT is why Roe v. Wade was necessary.
Think it's not still the same in some places? Go to Utah and ask around the more fundamentalist of the Mormon groups or maybe places in the rural south. Or you could just ask my ex; when I looked into getting spayed the first doc I consulted with called my then husband and asked if he agreed.
By the same token, after we split up we remained very close friends; he told me when he looked in to getting himself snipped his doc asked if he already had children (if no, the doc wouldn't do it) or was married and if so what his wife thought. The independent reproductive rights of men are just as important as those of women. That anyone would choose to base what medical care is available for men upon their own values and judgements is just as abhorrent.

"ugly baby... wrong gender... 666 on the ultrasound... (j/k on those last three ha ha ha ha ha "
This is not something that I consider amusing. OK, the 666 got a grin from me but not the other two. The others are among the more extreme examples that pro-lifers always throw out as exemplars of the frivolity of reasons that women use to decide to have abortions. Using them as a joke is a nice backdoor way to denigrate those with views opposing your own.

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