Torture?
American officials have cause to worry there may be more al Qaeda-trained young men in Yemen planning to bring down American jets.
Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab, charged with the attempted Christmas Day bombing of Northwest Airlines flight 253, told FBI agents there were more just like him in Yemen who would strike soon.
And in a tape released four days before the attempted destruction of the Detroit-bound Northwest plane, the leader of al Qaeda in Yemen boasted of what was planned for Americans, saying, "We are carrying a bomb to hit the enemies of God."
OK, we know that this guy has information we need to stop more bombings. Should we torture him to get this information or should we take the high road and let his buddies try to kill innocent people? Would your answer change if your daughter were a flight attendant? What if your grand kids were planing a visit from Europe soon?
The answer for me is easy. I would do everything possible to get as much information as possible for this scumbag. I would not have the tiniest trace of sympathy for this POS.
For an example of what I am talking about watch the Bear Jew scene in the movie Inglourious Basterds. Only Tarantino has the stones to film a scene this raw. Most directors would flinch at the brutality of killing a Nazi officer with a baseball bat, but not Tarantino. The man is a Nazi. Everyone knows what the Nazis did to the Jews.
There are few scenes where pure hatred is released in an act of retribution where there are no limits. This is how I feel about Umar Farouk Adbulmutallab and is ilk. This man attempted to kill an entire lane full of innocent people. He deserves no mercy and any that we show him will wasted on this soulless, sub-human POS.
What do you say? Is there a limit to how far we should go with scum like this? If so why?
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written by Dave Thul , December 28, 2009
If we refrain from torturing the 'suspect' as the One called him today, and we don't send him to Gitmo, then the terrorists will like us and they wont send any more fruit of the loom bombers, right?
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
It's just not that simple DT. "Tho One" as you refer to him has his work cut out for him preventing terrorist attacks and I believe he will take this threat seriously and do what he can within the law to prevent future attacks. There are no guarantees to preventing terrorism and it is the responsibility of individuals to be vigilent as well. If you catch one I guess you could torture him if that would fulfill that need.
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 28, 2009
No don't speack of things like that the unwashed masses must never know that we want them to like us
written by Kermit , December 28, 2009
Well Fred, Obama's DHS Secretary has done a heckuva job. First she claimed the "system worked" when a Dutch filmaker saved a plane full of people, then Janet said it failed.
Vigilent? These clowns couldn't even keep a pair of party crashers out of the White House.
I will not waste time editting insults during my vacation!
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
By vigilent I was referring to the citizens of the US not only DHS or the secret service. If you want to keep referring to the party crashers, etc, etc.. that is fine but that too is as amusing as it is idiotic Kermit. What would you propose to solve the problem??
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 28, 2009
you can not protect against a suicide bomber if they are set on killing themselfs they will do it and take out as many as possible even if it is the cop on the street that stops him
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
You are exactly right Tim. If someone wants to pack explosives in their jockeys or body cavities, they may very well be able to bring a plane down or kill/injure a group of people in a crowd. I despise it when jackasses like Kermit use such events to make political hay when he has no ideas to prevent future attacks. Get ready to fly nekkid my friends.
written by notpcenuff4u , December 28, 2009
Fred the projector. Nice way to argue your point, whatever it is. That says much about you though I'm not surprised. The need would be to do all one could do to save innocent lives under attack from terrorists. I'm sorry you don't see that or understand it. I'm even more sorry dear leader doesn't get it but I'm not surprised at that either.
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
Talk about not making a point nopc. Dear leader?? C'mon, I get it that we need to do all we can do to save innocent lives but give me some ideas rather than tired anti-Obama rhetoric. It accomplishes nothing...
written by Kermit , December 28, 2009
I have an idea, Freddie. Instead of strip-searching grandmas why don't we do a little profiling? This latest asshole was on a "watch list" and yet still held a multiple reentry visa for the US. Janet the Douchebag and her pathetic boss almost got 200+ people killed and you defend them. The Obamammies can't even translate the word "restart" into Russian, yet dumbasses trust them with national security. Just frigging astounding.
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
I don't know who Janet the douchbag and her pathetic boss are. If you want to address people like adults then we can discuss this issue.
written by Kermit , December 28, 2009
" jackasses like Kermit "
Hypocrite. You talk about "addressing people like adults". You first.
written by Fred , December 28, 2009
You're a great American Kermit and an upstanding citizen! You second...
written by Al Gore , December 28, 2009
Wow. You guys get that the real security breakdown was not here but in Amsterdam, right? I've traveled thru that airport many times and their security is usually much better than ours. Tim is right - we will never be able to totally prevent an attack by people with nothing to lose.
The threat level has been at Orange for what - 3+ years? When you leave security to a bunch of rent a cops with badges, stuff will get thru. And creation of Homeland Security, the biggest expansion of the federal government in decades wasn't done by this President. Where's your outrage at that boondoggle? I guess you the myth it works because we haven't been attacked since 2001 is just that. Security efforts in multiple countries didn't stop the attack - the bombers incompetence did. We were lucky
written by Sequel , December 28, 2009
Al- US State dept issued the visa to a known jihadist. That's not Amsterdam's fault.
Fred- Kermit's got it right: Special VIP, culturally sensitive, uber-respectful Muslim only screening. "Oh, Mr.Mohamed; there's jews and bacon sammiches in this line - that special halal screening line over there is for you
written by notpcenuff4u , December 29, 2009
Ideas?
How about we quit with the pc bullshit and call a spade a spade?
Since 99.9% of the terrorist acts are committed by Muslims males perhaps we should expend a tad more effort in looking at Muslim males. This guy was on a list and had been turned in by his father as a radical and still got a visa.
written by Nobody , December 29, 2009
Ah common, 4U, 99.99999% of all terrorist acts are by Mooselimb males. Let's just ban them from airtravel altogether ! Or let them start their own airline. Oh wait, they have one, sorry.
written by Al Gore , December 29, 2009
Sequel -- no question the State Department screwed up. But they are not responsible for security at Schipol. Visa or not, the security process failed to detect the bomb.
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 29, 2009
Al It was not only the visa issue he had no passport, paid with cash for a round trip ticket, and only had a carryon bag. Also his father went to the embassy and told them about his son. This administration will not even admit there are radical Islamic terrorist that is to demining and we can make people feel bad. That is the fastest way to national suicide. The cop on the beat can not do this it needs the military this is a war not a crime. There have been over 41000 terrorist attacks since 09-11 this is not a crime wave it is a radical religion declaring war against the world and so far the world is losing.
So now that the pig is in the corn field the rest of us must go through more crap to get on a flight. and on top of that how much productivity will be lost with the nothing in your lap rule for the last hour of a flight. Just think of all the lost time for folks that go from here to Chicago that is less then an hour now all they get to do is sit there like 3rd graders with their hands in their laps for a time out. Our security has to get it right all the time all the terrorist has to do is get it right once. Cut the dame PC Crap. In the resent past Great Britain took care of an Islamic Jihad war real fast and real efficient. It is real hard to keep up attacks when you have no troops. When they took the captured terrorist that were found guilty and executed the body’s were wrapped in pigskin before burial and covered in pig’s blood. Boy when the jihadist found out about that it dried up any recruiting they had who wants to die for God and be dammed to their version of hell because they would not go to paradise buried with a pig. That ended that uprising really fast.
written by Al Gore , December 29, 2009
Tim - you were in the military so you know it is impossible to get security right all the time. I agree that The new travel restrictions are a waste of time. We have 10 dollar anhour people working for the largest bureaucracy in the federal government responsible for security. The multiple departments don't talk to each other and the databases are not coordinated. Part of that is buraucratic turf protection and part of it is our fear of big brother. We should hVe one database containing info on everyone, both domestic and abroad that in any way poses a threat. Every firearm and weapon of any kind should be registered and tracked.
We need to not over react as we did after 9/11. There is no system that will provide 100% security. It's incumbent on all of us to be vigilant when we travel.
written by Jewhawk , December 29, 2009
First we have this statement
"Every firearm and weapon of any kind should be registered and tracked"
Followed immediately by this nugget:
"We need to not over react as we did after 9/11."
Where to start?
Every firearm and weapon of any kind... That would be some database because a weapon can be a ICBM or a shovel, a hammer, a toothpick or tv set. The cord for my phone charger can be a weapon as can the dog dish or the SUV the pissed off woman killed her husband with.
Maybe just take the weapons away from everyone and we can all sit around and twiddle our thumbs waiting for the man to give us sustenance and tell us when we can take a shit.
It is incumbent for everyone to be vigilant all the time, not just when traveling. If we were smart we'd be more like the Israelis but they learned the hard way as well. I suppose we might eventually figure it out but some of y'all are gonna have to die first.
written by Jewhawk , December 29, 2009
Don't forget boxcutters. You can bring 100 story buildings down with those bad boys.
written by Kermit , December 29, 2009
Seriously, we have a limp dick leader, and jihadis know it all too well. Go over to Yemen and register and track "every firearm and weapon of any kind". That'll show 'em.
written by notpcenuff4u , December 29, 2009
The leader is a dick.
How can it be helped?
Al
It's not the 10 dollar/an hour line worker who makes policy and procedure and why the hell you rippin' on a person because they make 10 bucks/hr anyway? That's bullshit... but typical.
Would you like to rephrase your comments regarding weapons, registering them all, tracking same and overreactions a little?
Or was it meant to be funny?
written by kow , December 29, 2009
That "ten dollars an hour" line is from the lefties that want to unionize TSA. Just what we need. Fat lazy asses taking a sandwich break with 500 people in line. And yes, that's what I consider a lot of union people. Shit slimes down hill.
The pathetic excuse for a President has done everything he can to build walls between law enforcement, government agencies and the military. Not to mention his lofty platitudes of political correctness interfering in intelligence gathering.
It took less than a minute (probably sitting in his 'underpants') in his audio version of a quick response (4 days later) to blame Bush for what happened. Not mentioning, of course, that he has been in office for a year and still hasn't filled many security positions and took 8-9 months to get around to any of them.
Janet is another pathetic excuse for "madam secretary". She has NO business leading a team of street crossing guards, let alone Home Land Security.
This latest threat on Christmas Day (not coincidence) is Burocks' and his whole administrations fault.
written by kow , December 29, 2009
Your right Kermit. My blunder. It's the collective bargaining they want.
written by Barthélemy Barbancourt , December 29, 2009
How about we stop looking for bombs and start looking for terrorists like Israel does.
We need to profile the hell out of Muslims and stop wasting time on Granny and her knitting needles.
Airport security could be made more efficient and more effective if we profiled.
written by Barthélemy Barbancourt , December 29, 2009
No one said that we shouldn't torture this asshole.
written by Jim W , December 29, 2009
Yes, I have no issues with waterboarding the hell out of this moron. here's what is funny about this, though. He will say he was tortured anyway. so what is the effing difference??
written by Barthélemy Barbancourt , December 30, 2009
Freaking Jidahi's have been trained to claim torture no matter what, so we have nothing to lose by kicking his ass.
If we get 1 piece of good intel out of this asshole, it's worth it.
written by kow , December 30, 2009
That's what I was thinking. I don't cosider water boarding torture, but if that's what it's labled....so be it. Pulling your fingernails off, drilling your teeth without sedatives or using the Bear Jew method is torture. Making terrorists think they are drowning and giving them nightsweats for the rest of their lives, I can live with.
written by Fred , December 30, 2009
kow, are you willing to demonstrate that waterboarding is not torture by undergoing this interrogation method to prove your point or have you been waterboarded in the past. I'm curious how you came to this conclusion.
written by kow , December 30, 2009
umm, I'm not a terrorist, so no I won't. Because you call it torture means I must? Is that your line of thinking here? What exactly would that prove?
I also don't believe in gravity, so I would like you to prove it off the IDS.
written by Fred , December 30, 2009
What a stupid response kow. I don't accept anyones claim that waterboarding is not torture unless they have experienced it. BTW, gravity is real and I'll prove it by jumping off a snowbank or something. I'll take a pass on the IDS though.
written by Nobody , December 30, 2009
Shoot Fred, I'll do it! I'll give you a week to sell tickets! If our Army Rangers can do it in training, I'll give it a shot. BTW tell me again what gravity is, exactly? You can't. Moron.
written by kow , December 31, 2009
What's stupid is you thinking I really care what you think.
The dumbass made that aircraft the war zone in the war on Islamic extrememist terrorism and should have been shipped(in 80lbs of chains) directly to a reopened Gitmo.
No matter how long burock and his clowns hold their forefingers in their ears shouting lalalalallalalalala, this war is not going away. Try opening your eyes Fred.
written by Fred , December 31, 2009
kow - Are you really dumb enough to think that President Barack Obama has his fingers in his ears ignoring the war after he just gave the order to send additional troops to the middle east? You are dense.
Nobody - You name the place and I'll sell tickets. I'd also let you record this procedure and post it online.
Gravity is a force that exists among all material objects in the universe. For any two objects having mass, the force of gravity tends to attract them toward each other. Gravity operates on objects of all sizes, from subatomic particles to clusters of galaxies. It also operates over all distances, no matter how small or great. Or as the great Blood, Sweat and Teears would say "what goes up must come down..." (At least I think it was Blood, Sweat and Teras or was it Teddy Pendergrass??
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 31, 2009
Fred
I was in the army for 6 years and have gone through every survival school the military has including POW Survival training. So that you know why I had to go through all of this was because I was the crew chief on a UH-1H helicopter, we flew special ops guys around the jungles of Panama, Nicaragua, and Columbia. Part of that training was how to survive interrogation methods that are used by our enemies.
It is no fun to have to go through, but it is not going to kill you unless the guy doing it is totally a sadistic bastard, and wants you dead. They train us that way so we know what to expect if we get captured.
Now Fred would you please tell me what we are supposed to do to get information from these war criminals. Do you expect our interogaters to give them tea and fan them off to keep them cool?
I don’t mince words because as they are unlawful combatants, dressed in civilian clothing, and attacking military and civilian targets. Under the Geneva conventions they really only deserve a bullet in the head when they are captured in a combat area. How are we supposed to find out information if they are put into the civilian court system where they will have a lawyer sitting next to them telling them what they can say and what not to say? This is not a civilian crime and cops are not the right people to be handling this or are you that blind?
As for the president not being for the war on terror how many things has he done so far this year to prove that.
1.He is closing the one prison that was designed to keep them locked up and the rest of us safe.
2.He is moving several hundred people from an island where they are kept away from a civilian population where they are prevented to have any visitors or possible escape attempts.
3.He is putting war criminals into the civilian legal system. Where they do not belong.
4.He is giving constitutional rights and protections they do not deserve nor should they receive.
5.Taking over 100 days to approve an increases in the troop level after he was told it will take x amount of time to get the people in place with billeting and such it is now possible that the new troops will not be available when they were needed because the POTUS was to busy playing golf and running around apologizing for the US.
6.Changed the rules of engagement for our troops so that now they have to have been shot at before they can fire back.gee how many solders will we lose to this fucked up rule?
I can keep going but I'm sure you can get an idea on why several of us think he is not willing to take on this war OH WAIT I forgot the biggest one it is not a war but a man made foreign contingency action.
written by kow , December 31, 2009
That's the thing tim. You can keep going and Fred will stand there with his fingers in his ears going lalalalalalalalala.
Anyone thinking burock is fighting this war isn't aware of any facts.
written by Fred , December 31, 2009
You guys are fully indoctrinated and I guess it's pointless to try and enlighten you at all. You just don't get it. Anyway, despite our differences I will wish you all a safe and happy new year.
written by Kermit , December 31, 2009
Riiight. "Fully indoctrinated". That's so much easier than actually discussing cogent points, isn't it? Anytime you'd like to make a valid argument, you're welcome to. Otherwise I guess it's safe to say it's YOU who is "fully indoctrinated".
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 31, 2009
"You guys are fully indoctrinated and I guess it's pointless to try and enlighten you at all"
excuse me what makes you think I even want you to try and enlighten me look here young man I suggest you rally look close at the founding documents of this nation and try very hard to find a passage in any of them that allows what this administration do what it is trying to right now then think about that enlightening thing of yours
written by kow , December 31, 2009
Let's see here. We (mostly Kermit and I) are jackasses, stupid, dumb and dense, but mostly we are all indoctrinated. hmmm.
We've given what we see as answers of what to do with pos terrorists. Fred, on the other hand, has done nothing more than name calling. Time to man-up Fred. Tell us what should be done to Umar and his ilk. How will we get the information we need to save American lives?
written by Jim W , December 31, 2009
Poor showing for Warren...I mean Fred. Fully indoctrinated? Enlighten us all SwampFred. Please.
If you had the opportunity to save a million lives, and you inconvenienced this one terrorist, wouldn't it be incumbent upon you to do it? Or is it against your moral compass to save a million people by making this underpants terrorist uncomfortable?
written by Nobody , December 31, 2009
Fred, you told me what gravity does, not what it "is". Torture as defined by the left ranges from waterboarding to "uncomfortible positions for prolonged times" So by that measure my HS football coach tortured all of us. Gimme a break, have a happy new year if you can.
I have to go and indoctrinate someone. Moron.
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , December 31, 2009
Fred says it is only someone who has been waterborded can talk about it I come forward and he runs away bitching about us beeing indoctronated gee good job there stud
written by notpcenuff4u , January 01, 2010
You knew that would happen, Tim. You shouldn't be surprised at the goalpost moving ways of the liberals. It's what they do. The minute you fulfill the requirements or answer their bullshit they change the parameters or just ignore it. With fingers in ears they march on like good little idealists and sycophants, listening only to that which makes them feel good because after all, life is about feeeeewings, nothing more than feewings.
BTW, Happy New Year to all, even liberals.
written by tim-The Dyslexic Blogger , January 01, 2010
NotPC I was pretty sure that as soon as any one did Fred would run away I was just pointing it out for him in one of the forms he might be able to understand. I may not be one of the longest lived posters here on the anti strib, but at least I’m still here under Bart’s new rules for this new version. It really easy a lot better without all the f bombs. It would be a lot better if the libs would just engage in discussion but no they just fire off their broadsides and run back to mom’s basement cellar. Happy New Year to everyone here and you libs too.
written by Barthélemy Barbancourt , January 01, 2010
But note that not liberal came out ans said that this POS shouldn't be tortured if it could save lives.
This is one of the problems with liberalism, reality has a a way of fucking up their theories.
If something doesn't leave a permanent physical mark, it ain't torture.
written by Fred , January 01, 2010
"Running back to moms cellar"? What the heck canm't a guy spend a day with his family without plugging into a blog multiple times a day. I'm happy to debate the issue with you and, as you suggest, I'd also prefer to forego the f-bombs in the discussion. Anyway, Ii hope you all had a great new years and to get back to the topic, I'll say that I prefer to live in a country that does not torture people. Number one it is barbaric and number two I believe it creates more terrorism than it prevents and rarely provides reliable intel. I'm not suggesting there is an easy answer because there is not. I'm willing to have police and transportation security authorities profile but I do not accept torture as a means of preventing terrorism. Bart, here are a few interrogation methods that likely do not leave marks that I would still consider as torture: electric shock, water boarding,coffin enclosure, hanging, sexual humiliation and I'm sure there are others that I have missed. I'll try and keep up with the exchange here but I do not run away as you suggest but I am pretty busy so, if you'll excuse me I have soome nails to pound. I'll check in with you folks later.
written by Kermit , January 01, 2010
Tell us, how does torture create more terrorism than it prevents? This is your big chance, Fred. Present a convincing argument, because in my mind this is an idiotic canard.
written by Fred , January 01, 2010
Terrorism foments anti-American sentiment in the middle east and creates a breeding ground for terrorist recruiting. Couple that with unemployment rates among young Arab men of greater than 20 percent and you have a breeding ground for jihad. Can you give me some instances of of torture preventing terrorist acts? You can probably name a few but I doubt that it is greater than or even equal to what is created. I realize this is nearly impossible to quantify but we can try for the sake of discussion. I responded with no insults to you in the spirit of civility and I would respectfully ask that you do the same; let's consider it a new years resolution. Thanks Kermit.
written by Kermit , January 01, 2010
Muslim jihadis have been calling for death to America and Americans since the 1970s. These same people have and continue to practise actual torture (you know, cutting off body parts, gang rape, general mutilation). So you are trying to tell me that people who have no problems with taking a power drill to someone's thigh are going to get all indignant with a little waterboarding?
You need to do a bit more cultural analysis.
written by Kermit , January 01, 2010
Silly me, I forgot that whole sawing off peoples heads thing. Watch the Daniel Pearl video sometime. al Qaeda is really quite proud of it. The pig screaming on the tape is very effective as the blood squirts out of his carotid artery while he is screaming.
written by Fred , January 01, 2010
I'm as disgusted as you are by torture methods used by others and the beheading of Americans in the Middle East. However, I don't believe it justifies our country utilizing torture against others. We stand on our principals or we have lost so much.
written by notpcenuff4u , January 01, 2010
Thomas Jefferson stood up to the jihadis and the USMC beat their asses quite convincingly.
Yeah, they were pulling their bs back then too. We hadn't tortured them then and we didn't torture 'em on 9-10 and cause 9-11 either. Read the Koran, listen to what is said in the mosques by the clerics and by all means watch a couple vids of these bloodthirsty bastards killing someone with a dull knife.
Waterboarding is scary and uncomfortable. It does produce results.
Beheading is nightmarish, horrific, terrifying and final. It produces a corpse.
written by Kermit , January 01, 2010
We don't torture. Making some sub-human peice of shit stand up for four hours isn't torture. Having a menstruating woman rub her ass on a jihadi isn't torture. Waterboarding isn't torture. Ask Tim. He's been waterboarded.
Your sensitivities are exactly the thing that will lose this war and get us all killed, Fred.
written by Kermit , January 01, 2010
When you get down to it, there are only two "terrorist recruiting" instances.
#1 resisting Islam.
#2 showing weakness.
written by Fred , January 01, 2010
I'm not convinced that anti-torture sensitivities will get us all killed Kermit. I have struggled with the question of whether I would be able to stand up for my principles of an America that does not torture if this would directly result in my death in some way. Harder still is throwing family into the equation. People have been dying for this country and it's principles since it's founding. I'm checkin out for some QT w/ Mrs. Fred. G nite.
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